April 22, 2007
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Preventing School Attacks
Recent events have made prevention of school shooting incidents a major part of the public agenda. I have few suggestions to start some discussion:
1. Campus Control seems to be a buzzword. Access to many school campuses is much more rigidly controlled than even a few years ago but it is unlikely that even the most careful checks can completely protect students and some of the regulations and laws recently enacted seem to be excessive. In any event, protection of school children is spotty at best - have you ever seen a school bus with seat-belts?
2. Empowerment of teachers and supervisors has been suggested as a practical way to protect students. Many teachers seem to feel they have no obligation or power to protect their students or at best only a passive attempt to shield them. Few teachers will today wade in to a fight to break it up - especially if weapons are involved. there is little or no training in self-defense or physical action in most teacher training.
Also when a problem seems to be starting, many teachers will be instructed to keep their heads down and not make waves. I once had occasion to be a wave-maker and was responsible for the removal of a murderer from the school system - He was later convicted of eight murders of young girls. Incidentally, he was hired as a policeman by two different police departments before his actions were discovered (Wilton Manors, FL and Martin County Sheriff's Dept., as I remember), and after I had had him removed from our school, I got considerable hassling from his college and the school system but I stood my ground.
3. Balancing freedom and safety is a difficult task. Even if we kept the students in steel cocoons for their childhood it is unlikely that we could protect them from senseless violence and growing up sheltered would certainly not ready them for the world they live in. Teaching them to be alert to danger signs and how to avoid trouble is about the best we can do.
4. Gun control is probably not a very good answer. In the first place it is very unpopular in America and in the second place, it probably would be ineffective in preventing a really dedicated sociopath from his actions. To be sure, countries with strict gun controls have fewer gun-related homicides but there are an estimated 40,000,000 guns in private hands in the U.S. today, so the question is moot.
5. The Attitude of Helplessness which seems to pervade our society can be overcome. On the planes of the four 9/11 suicide attacks, the passengers of only one seem to have fought the hijackers and partially thwarted their mission. During the VT attacks last week, the shooter must have re-loaded multiple times, during which he was relatively helpless, but apparently no one dared to actively resist.If you were in a position to protect children from an attacker, what would you do?
Have you had the training or experience to actively resist an attack?
Comments (19)
I'm not sure most of us know what to do against someone with a gun, other than to try to talk to them. I imagine that was done in this case, with no results. People had tried to reach out and talk to Cho beforehand, and only met with resistance.
Maybe throw a desk at him?
Honestly, if I were in the position where I had the opportunity to protect children, I would act without hesitation. I would react, and in the most extreme manner possible, so that whoever was threatening them would go down, and stay down. Similarly, have gone through several years of martial arts training in several different styles, again, I would have attacked him if the opportunity arose that would allow me to stop him. Actively going against a gun, while scary, is relatively simple. Having talked with and discussed martial arts and armed combat with Bruce Siddle (of PPCT Management Systems, ie the man and company who trains federal air marshals), the most strait forward way of disarming a gunman is to attack the thumb, which is often the weakest joint holding the gun. Basically, turning the gun so that it puts pressure on the joint of the thumb will effective disarm them.
Granted, rushing a person holding a gun is something which is insane, and should only be done if an opportunity arose, and even then, with the utmost care. Even having had years of martial arts under my belt, I don't know if I would have charged him, and even if I did, if I would succeed. But honestly, I think I would have tried. I will say this though; almost all of the martial arts training and teachers I have had say that when confronted with a person with a gun, you should give in to their demands. Hands and feet are fine and good, but a bullet can stop a black belt without so much as a twitch.
Most classrooms contain a variety of potential weapons. Those student desks are light enough to throw, big enough to intimidate the shooter and might knock him down. If you do launch yourself at a threatening gunman, don't screw around. Do it fast, do it suddenly, and don't stand back to see how he reacts. Get all over him in a hurry.
) broke up a daylight mugging where the old person was being attacked and perhaps a dozen people were just standing looking at the action. I didn't even think, just barreled into the situation. The mugger dropped his knife and took off - he did not expect such a reaction. (No, I didn't chase him)
I once (when I was young and stupid
Another time a couple of scroungy characters came into the schoolyard and I started after them. They retreated slowly and I kept pushing after them until they left. I looked around and saw the Campus security and Dean standing on he other side of the parking lot just watching. When i asked why no back-up they tried to shrug it off "You looked like you didn't need any help". A typical administrative CYA answer.
Violence in classrooms seems to be a phenomenon lately which baffles schools willingness and ability to control. We’ve tied the hands of teachers and school boards while at the same time created a culture of violence and fed it to children all their lives, what to do?!?
Really I wouldn’t worry about it too much; the social and economic collapse we face in 5-10 years when the reality of dwindling oil supplies hits will make a non-issue out of a lot of trivial problems we “struggle” with today. I think those violent students will fare better in the world than you and I will when that happens.
I heard the guns were aquired illegally. So much for outlawing guns ...see? the bad guys still get them.. And Rwanda almost anihilated itself with machetes. Madness will always find away to murder and our sanity is to curb it, you can't stop it completely.
to answer your questions ...
I would protect them first and if given an opportunity I would put the gunman out of commission ...permentantly.
I was raised in Texas where I learned to fend for myself a long time ago.
Last weekend my family engaged in a shooting. We loaded up the guns went to the end of the lot and let go some tension on a bunch of cans. Hand guns, rifles and even BB guns. The cans lost. The kids learned how to shoot and were inthralled what a .22 could do to a can. Wonderful times. Innocent times. This all was done after celebrating our Lords reserection and an easter egg hunt. 
No one was going to rob us that day. I love Texas.
If someone pulls a gun or knife and they are within 3 feet, the best thing to do if you keep your wits is to attack. They wont expect it.
RYC, I'm looking into Reform, where, if the 1999 "Statement for Principles of Reform Judaism" is applied, it shouldn't be an issue. Problem is, I don't know to what extent each congregation relies on those principles. I found one Reform congregation that described itself as a "protector of Jewish family values" - a red flag for a big dyke like myself.
I guess I'm just going to have to show up and observe.
RYC,This is one of your most interesting replies yet - I've got quite a bit to think about, and will probably issue more than 1 reply to you.
I suppose that I'm technically an agnostic now in much the same way that I was technically agnostic when I identified as atheist - that I refuse to say for certain that what I believe is irrefutably right. I will admit that I could be wrong. I believe that that's what faith is - belief, despite acknowledging that you could be wrong. (No, I don't claim that atheists have faith - belief when you could be wrong, and skepticism when you could be wrong are two different things.)
Your mention of the task of studying religion and it's relationship to the human condition coincides with my own meditation on how to approach the Tanach, particularly the Torah. On some thought, I see the Torah/Tanach as some of the collected stories of early humanity and God, as written by humans. Judaism is a school where you study those stories, and hope to learn more about both humans and God from them.
I'm perhaps a bit more universalist than the average bear in believing that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and all the rest are simply telling the stories differently - or telling different stories altogether - with the same goal in mind. They're all humanity seeking God. I run into problems with Jesus and Muhammad - the idea of need for an intercessor bugs me.
Where UU and I couldn't jibe was that UU is a bit too flexible for me. I see it as a beautiful thing, but one that's just not the right fit for me right now. I believe in the ontological reality and unity of God, and in seeking a community of other people who believe like me, I'm looking for that to be central, not optional. This may change one day, but for now, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around God, and I need a bit more structure.
This is where Reform Judaism piques my interest - there is the structure of the community of believers in an ontologically real, unitarian God, but one that allows for individual autonomy in interpreting sacred texts and other "organized" aspects of the religion. The central theme is God - how you decorate it is up to you.
The practice I found of treating women and gays like human beings didn't exactly turn me off either. Nonbelief in a literal hell also clicks with me.
The thing that I'm wrestling with with Judaism is core - "the chosen people". I don't believe God plays favorites, and I don't think that's what most contemporary Jewish theologians believe either. The rabbis I've read certainly don't. I'm still wrestling with exactly what that means. My answer to that will likely determine whether or not I convert.
Ya see, its not quite that simple. Sure, if someone is pulling a gun and I am three feet away, I would do something (pending I see it), but if they walk into my classroom with a gun drawn, the first thing I plan on doing is taking cover, then looking for something to A) protect myself or B) use to stop him. And, it would be in that order. Until you are in a situation where your life is being threatened, its human instinct to protect oneself, but a trained instinct for humans to attack in that situation. But I agree with tyche; a desk is a perfectly good weapon, and judging from the desks in the classrooms in the Engineering Complex at my college, I could easily pick up one one handed and throw it. That WOULD give ample opportunity to react, be it run, attack, or hide. I mean, who expects to have a desk tossed at them?
I was looking at the comments above, and couldn't help but disagree with the ones stating they would've or could've done this or that. I mean, seriously? Yeah, if I could go back in time and put myself in that situation, I would have done something about it too. Truth is however, this is something that you just don't expect when you come to college. A madman running around killing others is the last thing on your mind (not anymore though). And when you see your best friend with a bullet through his head, more likely than not, you're going to be in a state of shock. You're just going to (as quintessant pointed out) try to protect yourself and make sense of what's happening around you.
And regarding #5: Perhaps you didn't hear about Liviu Librescu, the 75 yr old holocaust survivor/professor, who shut the door and gave his students time to escape at the cost of his own life.
Agree with #4 and #3, kudos about #2, and #1 to an extent.
Why isn't anyone talking about the mental institution that classified him as "not a threat"; that b/c a professor reported he had issues reading his "creative writing" and two classmates reported his as a stalker.. we was required to check in to a mental institution. and though he seemed disturbed and slightly unstable, why didn't they do something about it? Had they done so, flags would have been raised when he bought the guns.
There are systems in place to stopping this sort of event. The problem lies in the implementation of those programs.
As I've mentioned, I've had a lttle experience both with reacting to violence and attempting to warn people about a dangerous person.
An effective reaction to a violent threat wil probably succeed best if it's automatic, as in the case of Prof. Liberescu - don't hide and then think of what you should do - do it, then hide
When trying to alert authorities about a person with serious problems, you run into the CYA attitude where everyone is more afraid of being sued than of the threat.
I my case I was trying to alert both the school system and his college about a student-teacher, about to graduate and start teaching, who had serious mental problems.
By the time I was warning them, he was already murdering young girls. He never was a teacher, but he became a policeman, then a deputy sheriff, and used his badge to kill more. During his three (?) year rampage, I was apparently the only one who ever blew any kind of whistle . Later one of his jailhouse friends was Ted Bundy, who he claimed greatly admired his two-at-a-time technique.
Actually, that was part of the problem. Because he was involuntarily institutionalized, he wasn't supposed to be able to get guns. Its part of that states gun laws, that it must be reported and investigated, when buying a gun, if you were ever involuntarily institutionalized. Really, that part of this situation was a lack of responsibility and following of state procedures when selling the guns.
Dick, I'm sorry I've avoided your topic and really most of these. I'm afraid the topic of school shootings runs a little too close to home for me to logically engage in a Socratic discussion on the issue... So with the disclaimer that I am posting as a friend rather than a member of the Socrates Cafe...
Campus control sounds good until you realize or remember that the shooters in Jonesborough, AK never entered the building, and the shooters in Columbine walked right through their school metal detectors.
Gun control sounds as good as campus control but in almost all of the school shooting cases in the last decade have involved weapons that are already illegal. Furthermore, it is against the law in nearly every state and municipality to carry a firearm on a school campus. So the law has already proven itself incapable of stopping crime.
Empowerment... That seems to come as close as anything to hitting the nail on the head of where the problems arise. Teachers have no control in the schools. They can't even discipline a bully so it's no wonder that kids are getting so psychologically scarred from it. The public schools teach our kids to question their parent's faith and morals and challenge their discipline and then the schools wonder why the kids won't mind and think the world owes them a living. Empower the teachers... back in the days when shop teachers carried around a wooden paddle and was known to use it, kids didn't open fire on their classrooms...
I don't know what the answer is. I know it isn't more of what we've been doing, because that isn't working.
I was a high school senior in April of 1999 when the shooting in Littleton, Colorado took place. I was close friends with the kid at our school, who attempted a copycat. I find it sort of challenging to calmly discuss the issue of blame for incidents like the tragedy at Virginia Tech.
As you know (from above), I've had some experience with trying to alert authorities to potential problems - in the case of the murderer, with limited success (but at least I kept him out of schools). In my day as a teacher, I found the best course was to follow the then current law: "Immediate correction can be administered in a mild manner" and argue my case later. On one occasion I happened down a school corridor and found a student busily setting fire to a trash can. I picked him up by the arms, dropped him in the can and told him to stomp it out. He did. We went our separate ways. I had many occasions to physically correct students (I was teaching Senior HS at that time) and never had any complaints - as a matter of fact I was a pretty popular teacher.
My first year teaching, I was handed classes of "Special" students -virtual failures as far as learning went. I had some students that year who would actually play hooky all day except for my class. I often got chewed out for not checking the attendance list and sending the truants to be punished (I never did). During my time as a public school teacher, I was mostly a Department Head and assigned classes to teachers. I always kept at least one "special" or "Basic" class for myself - they made a refreshing change from the advanced classes I mostly taught.
I had some students who were psychologically disturbed, at least one probably as badly as Cho was, but I found even the worst calmed down if given sympathetic attention. If there is any practical suggestion/solution to the problem of violent school attacks it is to pay active attention to the students - especially those who seem disturbed or are loners. More and tighter security probably is of limited value. No one, no matter how crazy, is going to start shooting in front of a cop and students are famous for their ability to sneak things past the administration.
Hi Dick,
RYC, going to put a note on themediocrity's website to make sure he sees it! Thanks for the info! I wish I had something to add to your conversation, but the truth is I have never been in any kind of situation like what you are talking about so I really dont know how I would react.
Well, take care and have a great night!
Brianne
Hi just wanted to find out how you and you wife are doing? Did I missread where I thought it said you were having surgery?
I like this post, enjoyed this one thank you for putting up. “To affect the quality of the day that is the art of life.” by Henry David Thoreau.