February 20, 2007

  • Talent vs Creativity

    One of the current discussions on Socrates_Cafe is:
    How does talent differ from creativity, or are they different aspects of the same condition?
    Perhaps Creativity is a Talent, but nevertheless, a distinction is often made.
    An obvious distinction is that of a musician and a composer. Many talented musicians have tried unsuccessfully to compose and I suppose the reverse is true. Some very talented musicians have their quite mediocre compositions performed because of their fame - I suppose that's why there is so much bad music out there.
    Along the same line, the same kind of difference exists between Artists (painters) and Commercial Artists, though the difference may be a narrow one. The difference seems to lie in the ability to see new and different approaches to the subject as opposed to the ability to perform in a technical manner in a way far superior to that of the average person attempting the same performance.
    This extends to almost all areas but sometimes the distinction is difficult to make.
    Does a good teacher necessarily have to be a creative teacher?

Comments (25)

  • I didn't see any new topic at Simone's.

  • Creativity and talent, eh? The question reminds me of taking a tenor and an alto out of the choir and asking how they differ. Definitions of both terms are subjective, and the thesaurus would find many overlaps.
    I think I’d rather be referred to as creative, because that can be an act of my will, whereas having talent seems a negation of that aspect of my being. Talent implies that I received it from some indefinable place or being, vis, Rush Limbaugh, talent on loan from God. You just have it without reason, or work which seems fishy to me.
    I think creativity comes from someone’s love of what they do. I don’t think its anything really special beyond that, it’s just that some people don’t seem to love doing anything enough to be subjectively thought of as either.
    When I played trumpet many years ago, I was constantly told how talented I was, and I never really felt very good about that, mainly because I put so much work into it that I felt that I didn’t receive proper credit for that work with the word talent. The fact was that I was creative in my playing because I had a love of playing it, it was better than sex and I often refer to my aging Bach Stradivarius Trumpet as my first love or wife.   
    I don’t play anymore but the sound of a trumpet still can make me cry, and I’m sure that if I still had the wind, I would be even better than I was in the 70’s. But if I indeed did have talent, then it was the lesser of the endowments I possessed in those days, you don’t get talent from working 4 hours a day.
    Being creative is like a utility, some are creative out of pressure, which isn’t pleasurable at all, but some work very hard at it because it is fun. Creativity seems more like competence done by intelligence in order to get from point a to point b. You can be a creative axe murderer, or a creative liar, but I would hardly think talent would apply to either of those things.  
    So I would bottom line it like this; talent seems like a gift, whereas creativity requires some effort.   

  • I think sometimes creativity expresses itself in different ways. Mozart and Beethoven would, I suppose, be considered creative by everyone, but when you examine the original scores we have of some of their compositions the are startingly different. Mozart's are clean and seem to be a finished copy - even though it's the original draft. Apparently he thought it all out in his head and wrote it down. Beethoven's on the other hand are generally a mess - full of scratchovers and changes, as if he had had a fight with the paper. What's even more startling is that Ludwig certainly didn't go back and play his composition (at least the later ones) over and over - he could not hear it if he had.
    Is everyone creative - just some of us more than the rest, or is creativity a rare talent?

  • I was going to do a short blurb on this topic, but you've pretty much covered it. All I might add, or clarify, is that talent involvues mastering a skill, while creativity involvues creating somethin new. Creativity allows someone to compose a symphony; talent allows someone (or a grou of someones) to play that symphony on a one or more musical instruments. Creativity allows an artist to paint an original picture; talent allows a decorator to use that painting in a room to its best advantage.

  • nice interpretation. though I think the real question is, in response to: Does a good teacher necessarily have to be a creative teacher?, is creativity a good thing? can one not be creative in malicious ways? ie. new ways of torture. Well, then again, what is good?

  • Does a good teacher necessarily have to be a creative teacher?
    After a lifetime of being a teacher and being paid extra for being a really good one (A Master Teacher under the now discontinued Florida program - I was one until I retired) I can give a pretty positive answer to my own question:
    A good teacher MUST be a creative teacher. He or she deals with many students each day, no two of which are identical in their learning process - even identical twins, of which I had a few pairs.
    Just to attract and hold the attention of a class day after day demands creativity. To fit the subject to their needs and comprehension demands even more. In case you wonder, that's why American Education is in such a perpetual bind; a few dedicated creative people are attracted enough to become teachers but many (most) drop out after a few years because school and college administrators and overseers make creative teaching extremely difficult or impossible. There is never enough time to really develop an understanding and the pay really isn't enough to support a family the way a college-trained person want's their family to be supported.
    For example, the public school year is 180 teaching days spread over the calendar year. (College years are even shorter). This is 20-30 or more days shorter than any other major developed nation. Why so short? My goodness, we'd have to pay the teachers and staff more and maintenance costs would go up.
    Let's cut more into teaching time with tests to check and prove they aren't doing as well as we want and use that as an excuse for paying only some of them a little more each year, maybe they'll try harder next year. If they leave, well, we can hire new ones cheaper and maybe they'll do better.
    We get what we pay for and we don't pay for creativity.

  • oh, don't get me started on the education system here in America. It will always baffle me as to why teachers get paid SO LITTLE... and why the prison system gets more money than the school/education system. I guess I could understand... but let us be logical here!

    with that said, I want to thank you for doing what you love. The best teachers out there are the ones that love to be in the classroom... that love to teach. I've had a few in my pre-college days... and to them, I owe them everything. I'd agree creativity is necessary in the class room, but I think you missed the general spirit of my question...

    can creativity only be used for the greater good? or can it be used for harm? at the point where people use creativity for "evil", it is proven that creativity is not inherently good. Creativity, like the gun, must be a tool one employs to futher their own means.

    Oh, I don't know where this analysis is going...

  • Dear Dick,
    It's taking a while, as usual. I spread myself a bit thin, but I always enjoy the challenges. Here are my questions for you concerning your article on "Talent vs. Creativity." I'm going to post these quite quickly, because of time constraints, and I hope the questions make sense.
    1. The piano, on which most "composers" create their works, is simply a keyboard, and the "notes" don't change. Music doesn't necessarily have to be heard in order to be composed. Beethoven composed some of his greatest symphonies while going deaf. Cole Porter wrote some of the most lyrical songs in the English language, yet he couldn't carry a tune to save his life if asked to sing. Yet both Beethoven and Porter are considered geniuses in the musical field. Are these gentlemen creative? Or talented? Or both?
    2. I would probably argue that the career of pop "artist" Andy Warhol forever blurred the distinctions between commercial and fine art. I have always considered Warhol very creative, but not talented at all. Is "technical perfection" a result of talent or creativity, or both?
    3. From your conclusion, I would suppose that the "talented" can observe "farther" than their creative counterparts. Could a "technical" artist be talented as well, and how would that transform his output?
    (Well, I have to get back to work. BTW, a lot of my job as an electrical designer is using a CAD program to create technical schematics so that technicians can build the control panels we manufacture. Although I am always calling myself a "failed artist", in the workplace, I don't necessarily need to be talented at drawing. I just have to know how to use the program to create the drawings. I use "creative" maneuvers to help speed the process, but I don't think I have an innate "talent" for drawing in this manner. I just know the program after having used it for a decade or so. As I say in my own article, if a person has a "talent" for playing the violin, and you present that person with a violin, they will be able to play it. I think the distinction is fine, but it appears nonetheless.
    Michael F. Nyiri, poet, philosopher, fool

  • Mostly to Mike:
    1. Yes
    2. Warhol's talent was probably neither artistic or particularly creative. He was extremely talented at manipulating people and as themediocracy mentions, not at all opposed to using his considerable talent to harm people. As I understand his background, he really didn't like people very much and enjoyed playing with their minds.
    BTW, I'm an amateur painter (watercolors) with a few years training - enough to know the rather modest limits to my talent - and I never have thought much of Warhol. I was pretty close friends with a more talented artist (Ron Markman) who used silkscreening better than Warhol before Warhol was born.
    3.I think as an artist, you have not failed if your CAD schematics result in elegant control panels - how "elegant" they are is a good way to judge your artistic merit

  • What a good discussion! Tychecat nails it when he says that a teacher must be creative. The sad truth is, as he said, that it is hard to be creative within the educational system we have now.

    Also, as discussed, talent is something you are born with; a successful artist is 10% talent and 90% sweat. That is not an original statement but one I have heard over and over, and I believe it is true. I, too, am a painter (oils and pastels) and I have some talent. Unfortunately, I don't have the drive to become better at it than I already am. I know that I'd be able to produce better art if I worked at it every day but I am not so disciplined. And even though I know the problem, I still don't make myself do what I need to, partly because there are so many other things going on. Sadly, the best time to put my ideas into practice is when it is unpleasant outside, but then I get into the doldrums and don't accomplish anything. Not an excuse - a reason. Anyway, as I said, good discussion.

    Peace.

  • Incidently, the little picture is of my granddaughter, her husband, and my new great-grandson.

  • Onee, I tend to disagree with you about the ratio of talent to sweat especially in the field of painting.
    Certainly a painter has to learn his craft - everything from draftsmanship to color balance and design (Draftsmanship is my particular bugaboo) but all the practice in the world will not make a good painting - there are lots of painters out there who are very elegant draftsmen, who make very bad paintings, and there are a very few, Picasso for example, who never took draftsmanship very seriously; but who were and are capable of making very very good paintings.
    Unfortunately, we are coming out of an era (Pop Art, et al) where critics and dealers favored novelty over creativity. I don't care how well balanced they are, a painting of several superimposed squares or an enlarged comic strip panel ain't very creative, nor is it art. Neither is a large canvas (actually a large paper) full of silk-screened images of Marilyn Monroe, no matter how many different colors are sloppily applied.
    On the other hand, I like Benton, Pollock, and Rauschenberg (among other modern painters).
    Why and how do you suppose the un-talented manage to become so rich and famous while Van Gogh died in poverty?

  • Dear Dick,

    Notice I put hash marks around the term artist when referring to Warhol. His manipulation as well as his use of video and film, and I guess you could say his manipulation of the media was quite creative. I wouldn't even say this was his "talent".  Didn't have an ounce of talent in my book.

    By posing the question of talent vs. creativity originally, which by the way I have done on other "non Socratic" sites, I want to find out how others differentiate between the two concepts, if at all. I write about my own mother in my article. I've always maintained that she wasn't talented, but she was quite creative when it came to overcoming the hurdles of talent in order to accomplish something. She was a PTA leader when I was in elementary school, and is even remembered today as a great influence in the lives of some of the children she touched. She designed all of the posters and flyers for the school, including the PTA newsletterhead, and made decorations for assemblies and carnivals. A lot of what she did with "analog" materials in the early 60s is "cut and paste" and is the foundation for most of the "art programs" available for the computer artist.

    Michael F. Nyiri, poet, philosopher, fool

  • Hi everyone. The comments above signed "Onee" were meant to be my comments. My granddaughter, Onee, is staying with me now and was already signed onto Xanga when I decided to comment here. When her picture came up, I stupidly assumed she had somehow changed my profile picture and didn't look at the name below. Not that she couldn't come up with some good comments of her own if she'd thought to, but those were my comments. And I have to agree that not everyone who learns good technique becomes a master painter. Why some people make it to the top without displaying any real talent is a mystery to all of us - I guess they have that drive to succeed more than they have talent. Certainly they have creative ideas of how to get there, but it isn't the kind of creativity I'd want. Anyway, it is a good discussion and I have enjoyed reading all the comments. The sun is shining, it is warming up outside, flowers are starting to grow, and my mind seems to be functioning again. . . somewhat. Love to all.

  • Dick,

    As a retirered teacher, I am curious to know what you think of Neil Bortz take on government education, if you've had a chance to catch his show on the radio?

  • Re your comment; Is everyone creative - just some of us more than the rest, or is creativity a rare talent?

    There are two ways to look at it, we can average the trillions of folks that ever lived into a consensus, or we can focus on the exceptions. Focusing on the exceptions might skew it too much though. I think everyone can be both; it’s a matter of desire and effort. I believe every one has the potential to be both, some just never find the right thing for themselves. It’s like the trail boss in City Slickers said when he held up one finger implying that the meaning of life rests in finding the one thing you do best and doing it.

  • Hee Hee, Annie, that photo of your GGK was sort of a giveaway. I'm glad you are back with us.
    Russell, Bortz is fairly typical of the Libertarian attitude, which has always to me been a sort of mixture of "I've got mine, so screw you", and "democracy is a crock". This attitude, best exemplified by Ayn Rand, has always had an appeal to Americans because Individualism is after all one of our strongest Basic Values.
    Fortunately we are also civilized, so we try to provide for the common welfare. The first American public education requirement financed by involuntary public taxes was in the Massachusetts Bay Colony - the "Old Deluder Law" of the 1640's requiring each town of more than 50 families to provide a teacher of children so that "That old deluder, Satan, who preys on the ignorant and unwary" would not lead then astray.
    Universal public education is still a very good idea. It's too bad that we have seldom funded it as we should have, just as it's too bad that our State and Federal governments have to oversee and pressure local school districts so as to insure any sort of compliance to the existing, democratically passed laws setting up a public education system.

  • Do you think that the teachers union is counter-productive to education these days? Does it actually prevent teacher evaluations like he (Boritz) says?

    Boritz related a story that certain principals had put some teachers in a "rubber room" because they either were unwilling or unable to teach, but also were protected by the union so they couldnt be fired or disciplined, thus they still get paid for doing nothing.

  • It was my experience when teaching in Florida public schools, that the state tenure laws were much more protective of incompetent teachers than the teacher's union ever was. While the tenure laws have changed, they still make it difficult for a school system to rid itself of poor teachers.
    This, however, is not by any means the reason school systems tolerate less than able teachers. The primary reason is that that's all they can get to fill vacancies. Most really good teachers who stay in teaching do it for the love of teaching - at least as long as they can afford to- but there are obviously never enough of them to go around.
    For some years I supervised social studies teachers in a large public high school (3000+ students) and as a result I became , I think, more knowledgeable as well as a good deal more tolerant of teacher's abilities. Some I despised as incompetent when I started seemed to do very well if properly matched to their students and I had to watch many of the best and brightest drop out year after year as they no longer could afford to teach.
    Early in my teaching career I was partially responsible for re-organizing a teachers union, I was trained in negotiating tactics at the U. of Chicago, and helped lead the only successful strike in Florida's history. I negotiated the largest percentage pay raise they ever (or probably will ever) get, Helped get a very large bond issue passed and ended with a commendation from the local school board. All in five years.
    I know of no union protection of teachers that would prevent administrative evaluation - as long as that evaluation was fair, equitable, and based on evidence.
    Teaching is one of the few professions where the government has tried to pay employees doing equal work different amounts based on conditions which neither the government or the teacher controls.
    For example, here in FL, teacher pay is partially based on how well the students do on the F-CAT achievement tests, thinly disguised as "How much they have improved". Teachers at inner-city or rural schools serving predominately minority children have a much more difficult job than those in schools serving more affluent neighborhoods, but the latter are much more likely to receive the incentive pay. We tried moving the kids around to balance them out, but that raises all sorts of other problems, is expensive, and almost always means less public support for education, among other problems
    If our educational system is to be improved, it will be very expensive - but worth it in the long run. Personally, I think the future of public education is on the internet with virtual interactive classrooms, while socialization and physical exercise is handled by neighborhood-based public athletic/interest organizations. The Soviet Union tried this separation system in their public schools for many years- it was about the only bright spot in their sad history, but we have a lot of evidence about how it worked.

  • It was my experience when teaching in Florida public schools, that the state tenure laws were much more protective of incompetent teachers than the teacher's union ever was. While the tenure laws have changed, they still make it difficult for a school system to rid itself of poor teachers.
    This, however, is not by any means the reason school systems tolerate less than able teachers. The primary reason is that that's all they can get to fill vacancies. Most really good teachers who stay in teaching do it for the love of teaching - at least as long as they can afford to- but there are obviously never enough of them to go around.
    For some years I supervised social studies teachers in a large public high school (3000+ students) and as a result I became , I think, more knowledgeable as well as a good deal more tolerant of teacher's abilities. Some I despised as incompetent when I started seemed to do very well if properly matched to their students and I had to watch many of the best and brightest drop out year after year as they no longer could afford to teach.
    Early in my teaching career I was partially responsible for re-organizing a teachers union, I was trained in negotiating tactics at the U. of Chicago, and helped lead the only successful strike in Florida's history. I negotiated the largest percentage pay raise they ever (or probably will ever) get, Helped get a very large bond issue passed and ended with a commendation from the local school board. All in five years.
    I know of no union protection of teachers that would prevent administrative evaluation - as long as that evaluation was fair, equitable, and based on evidence.
    Teaching is one of the few professions where the government has tried to pay employees doing equal work different amounts based on conditions which neither the government or the teacher controls.
    For example, here in FL, teacher pay is partially based on how well the students do on the F-CAT achievement tests, thinly disguised as "How much they have improved". Teachers at inner-city or rural schools serving predominately minority children have a much more difficult job than those in schools serving more affluent neighborhoods, but the latter are much more likely to receive the incentive pay. We tried moving the kids around to balance them out, but that raises all sorts of other problems, is expensive, and almost always means less public support for education, among other problems
    If our educational system is to be improved, it will be very expensive - but worth it in the long run. Personally, I think the future of public education is on the internet with virtual interactive classrooms, while socialization and physical exercise is handled by neighborhood-based public athletic/interest organizations. The Soviet Union tried this separation system in their public schools for many years- it was about the only bright spot in their sad history, but we have a lot of evidence about how it worked.

  • I wonder how the internet school would work, and if that won't raise as many objections to lack of socialization that current home schooling does.

  • Even current technology would allow for interactive individual teaching - and the way this is evolving, a virtual classroom fitted to the individual student is "about five minutes in the future"
    As I suggested socialization and non-educational interests should be undertaken by a system set up to do that - Sort of a boys & girls club/scouts/ athletic/ interest - community based publicly funded organization. I mentioned the Soviet Union' s program because they carried this further than any other public system (Remember all those photos of the kids running around with red neckerchiefs?) and this was one of the few successful programs they had.
    Their school system was fascinating but probably not appropriate to our needs. Yes, I studied this system fairly extensivly - at Harvard.

  • I remember the days, as you do, when you grew up in the same house, on the same street and had about 10 kids on that block that you played with everyday. School wasnt the politically correct place it is today, and you had a fear of your teacher because he/she could take you out into the hall and spank you with a polished 1x4 with holes drilled in it. Even though it was dreadful when it happened back then, I remember it fondly as a very powerful motivator for me to stay up with things in class, which turned into a habit that has brought me a lot of success in my life. I guess a lot of people in my generation didnt learn that particular lesson because we sure have made things easy on our own kids. I think kids need a bit more consequential experience in their lives, they need to struggle more. I think public education plays as big a part in this as anyone though, because the situation often alligns with the needs of the moment, whether that be funds or elections.

    You went to harvard at about the same time (perhaps) as a friend of mine, Robert Clipner. Did you know him?

  • Maybe a return of the Draft?

    I was at Harvard on a PhD program -I didn't stay long, as I decided to get married, buy a sailboat, and enjoy life.
    My screen name is that of that sailboat - as is the icon. We celebrate our 44th anniversary in June.
    Harvard wrote me for years asking where I was. I never had the heart to tell them I gave up higher ed for a sailboat.

  • Thank you for the sensible critique. Me & my cousin were just preparing to do some research about this. We got a book from our area library but I think I learned more from this post. I am very glad to see such great information being shared freely out there…

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