August 23, 2006
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What is an excellent marriage? Socretes Cafe's latest
What is an excellent marriage?
“Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments....”
That’s how Shakespeare begins his famous 116th Sonnet - Which some say is the best definition of love ever written.
Marriage should certainly be a marriage of true minds. That meeting of minds is certainly the center post of any marriage. The partners in such a bonding should both be perfectly satisfied with themselves and their spouse in all respects, entering into the union with no doubts or reservations. The idea that each partner should “give 50 % or more” is foolish. In an excellent marriage there is no thought of giving or sacrifice - the couple is doing what they both want to do -all the time.
In their book “Mirages of Marriage” Lederer and Burdick divide marriages into several different types, from dysfunctional to weary battlers, to comfortable,, etc. They mention the ideal type, which they called “The heavenly twins” but said they could find no examples of this type, however it theoretically did exist. this was a marriage where the spouses had absolute mutual interests, were each other’s best friends, went everywhere and did everything together, and never conflicted.
Lederer and Burdick didn’t look far enough. A few years ago a group of geriatric specialists did a study of long-married couples (50+ years) - as I remember in rural Texas - and found many such examples. Apparently the heavenly twins are not all that uncommon.
I have not, of course, listed all the components of an excellent marriage - just suggested the beginning framework.
A Question: Is such a relationship a starting point where two like-minded lovers sort of stumble on each other, or would a couple grow into such a relationship? If so, how?
Do you have any examples of such a relationship you personally have observed. I have one such example I’ll enlarge upon later, if anyone’s interested.
Comments (13)
Which do you think is more important in a marriage, deep friendhip or sexual tension and attraction? Can a marriage survive on either alone?
Undoubtedly deep friendship - which should include sexual attraction as part of the emotional component.
Apparently a marriage can survive on just one or the other - there are lots of examples - historic and modern - but I would not call such a marriage "excellent".
Of course, excellence in marriage is in the eyes of the married couple, no matter what the rest of us think.
As a matter of fact, different cultures define excellent marriages very differently - and groups in our culture have widely varying definitions.
A Question: Is such a relationship a starting point where two like-minded lovers sort of stumble on each other, or would a couple grow into such a relationship? If so, how?
Having done the stumbling but not the growing-into, I'd say the first part is helpful, but the second part is essential. And a third: they have to be willing to keep growing together, whatever that means.
How? I don't know; I haven't made it that far yet. ;p
If becoming the "heavenly twins" has to be a goal and not a starting point, how does a couple do that freely, without forcing the development of each partner to conform in a less than excellent molding?
I don't know how important it is to an excellent marriage, but my husband and I talked endlessly about all sorts of things. We never got to that place that so many couples dread - where the children are gone and the couple has nothing to say to each other. Although we never got to put it into practice, we both agreed that when he retired, we would each pursue our own activities throughout the day and come home in the afternoon or evening to discuss our day. Also, I think a sense of humor is essential to a good marriage. We laughed often at each other and at things that happened in each other's purview during the day. We never were bored with each other but our relationship definitely got better as we went along. And we had bad patches, but we had also agreed that the idea of divorce would never be part of our vocabulary, and it never was. I just waited through the times I knew weren't good and I'm sure he did the same with me. What I cherish now that he is gone, is that he loved me unconditionally, as I did him. That is such a gift - I wish all couples could know it.
Peace.
It is certainly a wonderfully idealistic approach to looking at marriage - no need to give or sacrifice anything, have both parties doing what they want when they want and it somehow works perfectly, no doubts, no reservations. Two puzzle pieces fitted so close together that they are both happy to just do the same things together and never need to conflict. It is a beautiful idea.
To me however, it almost seems like a completely unattainable reality that is more disheartening than it is encouraging because I doubt I would ever meet such a person. There has never been one person in my entire life, not a sibling or a parent, not a casual friend or a best friend, and certainly not a boyfriend with whom I have felt such a deep connection with in this sense. I have never been able to just be without having to make an effort to really show that I love someone at times. Tension rises and I am usually liable to get into fights. I have never completely been able to get along with someone 100% of the time. I am not a person who is hard to get along with, and I am not a person who finds it hard to love, but I am a person with flaws and so are the people who I enter into relationship with.
There is an idea that some people hold that claims that friction within a relationship is a good thing. It not only helps communication be as pure as possible, but it also teaches us about the other people, and it teaches us how to be better people. Let me give an extremely elementary example. If I didn't get into a fight with another kid in preschool over the dollhouse, how would I have learned to share? My parents and my teachers could explain to me that I need to share, but when I feel how fun it is to play with all of the dolls at once, I am likely to not share. It is only when I get a block thrown at my head by another little girl who wants to play too, or when another little boy is hogging the sandbox that I want to play in two that I realize that there is another side of sharing too, and that I should share. It is through that conflict and tension that I learn this. Now, obviously, not everything is going to be learned the hard way. And hopefully by the time a marriage comes about, everyone knows how to share. But I believe that we are still learning many things as we grow into and beyond adulthood, so why not embrace this conflict and tension even with two people who are 'heavenly twins'? It seems unlikely that two people could spend so much constant time together and never rub each other the wrong way.
Another question I have is what if you believe you have found your 'heavenly twin', assuming such thing exists. You marry this person and you spend years together in this blissful, "excellent" relationship. What happens when a doubt comes along? Or a conflict? Or a reservation? What happens if someone else comes into the picture who you feel even a stronger relationship? Can you lose this 'heavenly twin'-ness, or was it just never there to begin with? How do you know who to marry if this can just come and go, or do you just try out one or the other. I wonder if perhaps this thought that "In an excellent marriage there is no thought of giving or sacrifice - the couple is doing what they both want to do -all the time" that two people could be just loving each other without any effort because they are so perfectly matched, but something could happen, a doubt a conflict, another interest that could change what you 'want' to do. In this respect, should the relationship stay together, or has this meeting of 'heavenly twins' failed? If you have never practiced giving or sacrifice, how can you do it when times get tough?
Personally, I don't think that I will ever rid my life or my relationships of doubt, reservations, or conflict. Yet, I have a wonderful relationship with a man that I am going to marry, and I love him very much. I would love to believe that even though I have these flaws that cause me to doubt and to have conflicts, we can still have an excellent marriage.
My apologies if any of this sounded like an attack. There were lots of points in your post which I think are very worthy, and I really wish that two people could find such a soul mate as you have described. Yes, I believe two people can have exceptionally happy relationships, and get along famously, but I don't believe that there are any relationships completely void of hardship. Sorry for the HUGE reply! Thanks for giving me an opportunity to think through some of these things!
Hey! Thanks for the very interesting responses.
The "Ideal Marriage" is the thing myths and legends are made of. One of Plato's discourses on Socrates is on this very subject (The Symposium - I suggest you find a copy) and has been the subject of plays, stories, romances, songs, whatever, just about since people learned how to murmur sweet nothings in each other's ears.
Annie seems to have had such a relationship - I'm sorry that she and he didn't have a chance to grow old together - if they had it would surely have grown.
I think a couple can grow into each other, but they must start on the same page - mutual interests, respect, fascination, etc. They must really be "like-minded".
The example I mentioned is a case in point with a fairly surprising background. The couple met in their mid-thirties and both had had previous lovers and experiences - which had ended unsatisfactorily. Their courtship was, I believe, fairly short. Apparently they saw in each other just what they had been looking for, Became engaged four or five months after meeting, were married two months later.
They discovered that they were so well suited that they resented any time either had to spend away from the other, did (and do) virtually everything together and apparently find no difficulty in "being in each other's pocket" all the time. They do have many acquaintances, but, I think, few close friends. I have heard their friends say that their relationship is "sick" and I once heard the man's father grumble at him because he preferred being with his wife to going off for the afternoon with "the boys".
Both members of this couple were teachers (not in the same place) and were able to spend long vacations traveling the world - Unlike most of us, they are financially well off- inheritance, plus they chose not to have children. This is perhaps a downside to the relationship - they chose not to share each other - even with kids. They retired as soon as they were both eligible (about 20 years ago), and so far as I can determine, have lived their version of the good life pretty much ever since. One interesting thing, I've noticed that their relationship tends to make some people feel threatened. They are my contemporaries and are now pretty old - late seventies and eighties - so I expect the relationship to last.
I know it's a long shot but I was wondering do you by chance know a couple by the name of Jim and Barbara S? I wont say their last name until I know. I was just wondering because they travel to all the same places you do and they are around the same age.
I think things like fighting or not fighting, having lots of outside interests and friends or having few, are personality points that don't always mean a relationship is more or less satisfying to the people in it. If you're someone who needs to fight things out and you marry someone who can't stand conflict, that could be a problem. But if the traits mesh well, I think you'll be ok.
I'm interested in something Pi Rho mentioned, which is: How do you know who to marry, or at least when to stop looking?
(edit: in that last question I meant stop looking for better, not give up altogether.)
Is an "excellent marriage" something created by a ceremony or the institution of marriage, or is it a quality of relationship that exists apart from the institution? It seems we invest more in the ceremony and certificate than in the relationship... perhaps that is why most marriages fail.
The couple I was asking about live in Conn. and they travel to Maine and Florida so I thought maybe you mite know them. He had a brother that was killed in Vietnam and they are just good people, my mom was in love with his brother and he was going to ask her to marry him before he was killed.
I think other web site proprietors should take this web site as an model, very clean and great user friendly style and design, as well as the content. You’re an expert in this topic!