May 22, 2006

  • Socrates Cafe's current discussions include:Social constructs of gender

    Social constructs of gender: What are they and do they affect our realization of truth?
    This is one of the current topics and probably requires some definition.
    The social constructs of gender generally refers to what are culturally defined as "Women's work", "Men's jobs", or the supposed cognitive and emotional differences between the sexes - as defined by the culture. Does gender perception affect our realization of truth? That's a good question. Inasmuch as truth is defined by your cultural world-view, it probably does. This is a serious question with implications for current International Politics, World Health, and American Basic Value re-interpretation as well as other areas. this should be a lively discussion.

Comments (25)

  • Should we be asking if gender constructs affect truth or if they affect understanding?

  • Thanks for the link... that is where the link at the top of my post re-directs to as well

    Regarding gender constructs... Since the Iranian case of Nazanin is on my mind as well as the comments that I have been getting there which are from the Cafe... Let's take this a step further and  ask...

    How are gender constructs and cultural beliefs related?

  • Sociologists make a distinction between sex and gender. As I understand it, gender construct is the social perception of how men and women are supposed to act and this is very much a part of all cultures and changes as culture changes. Suppose a group from America in 1900 were shown a photograph of shoppers in a modern mall. I suspect they would be appalled just by the dress - that is lack of dresses on women and hats and ties on men, to site a simple example of social expectations and how they have changed.

  • tychecat - You have the luxury of being aware of the past. I'm sure the future would be as 'appalling' to you if you were shown a picture of terraformed Mars 10,000 years from now. But, at what point do things go 'off the rails'? Is there such a time as going 'off the rails'? Or, is whatever happens to society in the future assumed good simply because it has accumulated more distance from 1AD?

  • You bring up a good example of the way expectations of gender have changed. Are there basic expectations (in our culture) that have not changed with time? Do gender roles have any consistency cross-culturally?

    Also, do you think the recent habit of dissociating gender from sex will have any lasting effect on human sexuality?

  • How do we define truth in the context of this question?

  • Creed: I was using that simple example to illustrate how social gender construct changes with time, even in the same culture. I don't think it's very profitable to assign value judgments to cultural constructs unless said constructs violate your culture's basic values.
    For example, Arab/Muslim culture has very specific social gender constructs - especially concerning the worth and duties of women, that are very much at odds with our basic values, so we tend to dislike and reject Muslim culture.
    My fellow host, Blacksox, asks if changes in gender construct (I'm interpreting what was asked) will have effects on human sexuality. Surprisingly, I think the answer is YES, because the social gender construct very much influences the way sexual behavior is expressed as well as the culture's attitudes toward sex. Example: Both attitudes and behavior have very much changed since victorian times (See Kinsey, et al) and these changes were the result of social construct changes.
    Truth is often in the eye of the beholder, and the beholder's eyes see the world through social constructs, including those of his gender.

  • What constructs do you see the world with? Saying everything is a construct is the biggest construct of all.  

  • Just in our lifetimes, we have seen gender expectations for women change from staying home and being homemekers to being members of the workforce and balancing home and family. Does such a large change over such a short time create an identiry crisis for women? Does it create a crisis for men? What is the impact of that?

  • That's me above.

  • I agree that the change in roles and expectations was incredibly fast.  I think about the fact that 13 year olds have never had a life withour computers.  Those are as much a part of their thinking, expectations and truths as anything else.  I look at this little box sitting on my desk and while I can use it I cannot make it dance.  I imagine that the changes in identity and expectations cause the same sort of panic I feel when I am confronted with a PC task I don't understand only more so because it is more personal, more about who you are and what you do.  I've posted about the topic a bit more coherently on my site.  Love the discussion. 

  • I don't think we even thought about Islam before 911, and the only ones who know anything about it are over there now. A few poets knew Rumi well. What burdens we lay on the young.

    I think class and urban/rural distinctions determine more about gender--in and out of Islam--than do genitalia.

    Ketja

  • I think as sociologists use the word "construct" they are refering to those groups of value interpretations and social expectations (stereotypes? ) that seem to depend on or be associated with whatever the construct's focus is - in this case gender. Obviously other social constructs would include race, age group, social class, geographic location, nationality, culture, I suppose even your hair color (Dumb blond).
    To answer Creed's question: I'm a fat, old, bald, Caucasian, American male - boy do I have a bunch of constructs - .
    I can also describe myself as a teacher - what image and expectation does that conjure up?
    I am also an artist (watercolors and oils) and an army veteran, and a sailor, and a Social Historian.
    I am also a millionaire retiree living in florida -get the picture?
    The suggestion is that given any one or combination of these facts would cause you to have a certain mental image and expectation of behavior. Also the combination of all these traits very much influences my view of the world and my version of Truth, just as your traits influence yours.
    The point is that the images and expectations associated with all these traits are conditioned by our basic culture and Gender Construct is one of the most fundimental. The expectations and placement society gives you because of your sex probably influences all the other trait constructs you are influenced by. It is the first niche you are placed in and told you must forever occupy. It influences literally every decision you make during the whole of your life and colors the view everyone else has of you. If the society's gender construct gives lower status or demands certain behavior to females, as most cultures do, then social gender construct becomes a major problem for females. I'm sure some women are quite happy in their social roles, and I suppose some never realize what's been done to them; but the problem is that in our culture women's role and status is changing and we must come to terms with this change in a manner which allows us to re-intrepret our basic value applications and decrease the value conflict this has caused. This, in case you haven't noticed, ain't easy.

  • Could you define gender placemnt?  No wait, I've got it, society puts you in a place, typecasts you, if you will, based on your gender.  Is that what you mean? 

  • In part. Society also leads you to typecast yourself, so that you act as you have been taught boys/men or girls/women are supposed to act because that's what's True -you know it's true because you've known and believed it your whole life and any woman, for example, who wants to drive a race car is probably a dyke, just as any man who dances ballet is probably a queer.
    Besides chicks should know their place, after all: "Seduction is for sissies, a real man wants his rape"
    These attitudes are probably more deeply ingrained and prevalent than you realize.

  • RYC:  Definitely my actions and behaviour would change.  I know human behaviour would change.  In the absence of Divine love, hope and joy there would be no true peace.  Without peace, fear would be rampant.  Moral code alone, if that was even present, I do not believe would be enough to override the evil tendencies of man.  This is real easy to imagine.  Take hurricaine Katrina.  In the absence of police - what happened? Evil did prevail until order was restored.

  • You've got your mother in a whirl
    Shes not sure if youre a boy or a girl
    Hey babe, your hairs alright
    Hey babe, lets go out tonight
    You like me, and I like it all
    We like dancing and we look divine
    You love bands when theyre playing hard
    You want more and you want it fast
    They put you down, they say Im wrong
    You tacky thing, you put them on

    Rebel rebel, youve torn your dress
    Rebel rebel, your face is a mess
    Rebel rebel, how could they know?
    Hot tramp, I love you so!

    WE tore down the walls in the Seventies and all you little PCers and limbaughnistas REerected them and NOW bitch about gender perceptions

    Funkadelic had a philosophy that WORKED---Free your mind and your ass will follow, the kingdom of heaven is within---but THAT might be a bit too "crude" for y'all, even though MOST pre-civilized societies thrived on those very concepts

  • well, does it really matter if its ordered or chaotic? if it was chaotic in the world, i'd prolly be dead because my stereotype of chaos is people shooting and bombs... mmm... swords... *shakes self out of weapons-high* srry i like my ak47's, anyways back on track, if the world was strictly chaotic, I'd never climb a mountain. the slow order of wind driving a mountain down makes it possible for us to climb it, otherwise we'd die for lack of oxygen. no idea how that fits in but i know it does. so anyways, if chaos reigned, i'd die and go to heaven for a bit of order. no offense, and entirely joking (im going to be a counselor, so i was doing research and joking about suicide is one of the signs of suicide coming, but i AM NOT going to really kill myself, i say things, im insane anyways ttyl!

    -Charlotte~

  • Interesting discussion. I can see in my lifetime that gender constructs have changed - when I married, there were few other choices open to me. Not that I'd have made a different choice - I am glad to have found the man I shared my life with and I would raise a family again. However, knowing that doesn't change the fact that in my town, with our limited resources, I didn't have many choices. Perhaps women in cities had better choices, but ultimately most of the women I went to school with married and had families, even if they had good jobs before marriage.

    My daughters went to work and one of them worked steadily while marrying and raising a family. The other two daughters worked off and on while raising a family, and most of their relatives and in-laws expected them to work. Now my granddaughters are attending college and making careers rather than just getting a job. So our expectations of women have changed. Of course, they are still expected to be good housekeepers, good mothers and sexy in bed too! I'm sure much has changed for men too, since the 50s, but it seems to me that "women's lib" wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Not to complain too much - women do make better wages and have more rights, but they also have MORE work to do than when I was "just" a wife and mother.

    I know this is a personal comment, rather than a philosophical one. I think good questions have been asked and answered, so - just a comment. Oh, also, addendum - one of my daughters was determined to raise her son and daughter without any sexual direction, but my grandson insisted on playing with cars and my granddaughter insisted on dressing up and carrying purses and dolls around. Don't fool with Mother Nature!
    Love all.

  • Social constructs of gender: What are they and do they affect our realization of truth?
    My question is, what is the truth of gender roles?  There are many different interpretations even within our culture.  There are roles that naturally fall to one sex more than the other in most cultures including nuturing of mothers and providing/protecting by the fathers just because of the natural instincts.  There are some roles defined in the bible that would establish truth to an extent - as some of these roles were purely cultural.  I break a lot of social interpretation of gender roles in that I am a chiropractor (male dominent field) and a pastor (many would say that this is not a woman's place).  But in my heart I know I am called to do both.  Therefore, in my case the social constructs of gender made my truth somewhat more difficult but I am walking in the realization of the truth even today.

  • Anniemomz' comment above about her grandchildren's gender constructs, is a really good example of how deeply ingrained these SOCIALLY LEARNED gender roles are. Of course the boy is going to do "boy" things and the girl "girl" things. They are bombarded with both open and subliminal messages about appropriate behavior all day long. Annie's daughter might teach her children to be more open and accepting of gender roles, but I'll bet neither she nor her husband treat the children in identical non-gender-oriented ways.
    My point here is that we should be aware of the gender constructs and the implications of them, but I think the most we can do is consider some aspects, like equal worth and individual differences and how our attitudes might be changed.
    As NYCJOYCE says so colorfully above, our culture changed a lot in the 60's and 70's and gender constructs were among those that were altered - slightly.
    As Debbie says above, she, by the nature of her vocations, is both well aware of and "breaks" a few gender roles. I think she is a good example of how our gender concepts are changing and she also points out a reason why these changes are very slowly made. As a devout Christian, she must reconcile her role assumption (as a Pastor) with the traditions of her faith. In our culture today, this has become more and more prevalent - a clear indication of the changes taking place.

  • Hey, thanks for your comments on my Cafe post, I put up some responses if you wana go see

    Just a comment on this, even though many boys and girls play with their 'properly sexually oriented toys' that doesnt mean they wont play with the other kinds too. My daughter had this huge kitchen playset that her grandfather gave her (it barely fit in her room) and she rarely played with it, but when EVERY boy came over, they made a bee-line for that kitchen set, forget the trucks and legos in her room (she always loved playing with drump trucks and such) they wanted to play with that damn kitchen set! Of course that may have been a case of them not being alowed (or having access) to play with those sort of toys at home. And why is it that 'tomboys' are smiled at, but 'girlyboys' are frowned upon and even hated??
    ~Mia

  • There was a recent letter in our local paper by some sexist old veteran who went on and on about how women shouldn't be in the military.  He said it wasn't suitable for a woman.  Not so much because the women couldn't pull a trigger just as well as a man (though he implied that Canada's recent Afghanistan casualty was killed because she was female and therefore incompetent).  His reasoning was that women shouldn't be in combat because the male soldiers would be so distracted by the female soldiers' bouncing breasts that they would forget to kill the enemy.

    I think this mostly shows the generational differences in how we view gender.  Men and women hold all kinds of jobs today.  There are more opportunities for both genders.  A couple of generations ago, women were a lot more restricted in what kind of jobs they could hold.  It's not even necessarily a logical gender thing, since there are exceptions to every rule.  For example, some might argue that firefighters should all be male because males are larger... but there are some large, strong women out there who might want the job.  Are they, as females, less suitable for such a career than a male who looks like a stick insect?  Some rules, like the ones that prevent women from holding high positions in the church, are clearly based on societal constructs (rather than physical or mental limitations).  Though even these rules are changing in some circles...

    So it's very definitely based on societies and the way those societies view gender.  Societies change, though.  Gender roles, as we've seen in the past century, are not completely static.

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